Grinding Away...
It is intended to be optional. - Ghostcrawler (Source)First of all, let me point out the biggest problem with this statement. Everything. Yes, EVERYTHING, in a game is optional. The game itself is optional, I am not compelled to play WoW (aside from my addictive personality) every day lest I lose something. Raiding is optional, Arenas are optional, PvP is optional. Therefor by definition, EVERYTHING is optional. Now what Greg really means here is that the content is optional to progress in the rest of the game; your Shaohao rep has no impact on your ability to run Siege of Ogrimmar.
Still, is content being non-mandatory an excuse for it being grindy or lower quality? Look, Shaohao rep in my view is a giant step back from Blizzard's previous standard of quality. It harkens back to the old Vanilla WoW Timbermaw Hold rep grind which just meant hours upon hours of indiscriminately murdering every furbolg you saw. Even back in Vanilla days there were a few different places to grind and the lack of coalesced realms reduced competition. Now if you want rep with Shaohao, you are stuck doing a daily for 250-300 rep per day, plus 5-50 for the mobs. The problem is that there is a relatively small number of mobs in a small area. Frequently I have gone up there to find people basically standing on different spawn points and ganking them as they came into existence. I'm sorry, this is not good design, this is not "excusable" because it's "optional". Maybe there are people that find this fun, but I seriously doubt Blizzard is correctly estimating their number.
I have been impressed with how Blizzard handled the reputations in Pandaria. There are no shoulder/helmet-enchant grinds, with most reputations just offering some crafting recipes that one can purchase off the AH or mounts at their highest tiers, and the "Commendations" to speed alts along. Still, saying that "optional" content can be ignored because it's not necessarily required is poor justification, especially when how "optional" it is depends on your viewpoint. To a Pet/Mount collector that content is anything BUT optional because it hides a rare pet look and unique mount. This does spark the question for another post of what "optional" means due to its subjective nature in an MMO.
The issue of what is "optional" or not has also come up in the context of Pay-to-win; for a great post on it see Liore's post at Herding Cats.
Tag 'em and bag 'em
Many of the most interesting battle pets and mounts on the Timeless Isle come from rare elite mobs that spawn at semi-random intervals in specific places. This has lead to many players using General and other channels to communicate on the spawning of these creatures. It's a blessing that Blizzard has allowed for multi-tapping in this expansion. Still the mixed multi-tap and single-tap monsters on the island can be a little frustrating at times, and often means players only "help" if it's a multi-tap target. As I detailed in my last post however is that often you can "troll" other players by attacking a multi-tap target then ignoring it, causing it's health to go up and require more time for others to defeat it. You can say "But this helps more people get it," that is true, but it also means more work for those who are doing the primary fighting. That's a minor issue however, the bigger problem is that Blizzard is steadfastly refusing to move towards universal multi-tapping of mobs. I have trouble seeing the arguments for keeping it, maybe it could lead to proliferation of loot but in my view this is an MMO and anything to make us want to work together is a good thing.
Worse yet, the tiny drop-rates on the pets/mounts causes people to want to ensure their best chance at getting each item; which can even mean being deceptive about spawn and death times. I don't think Blizzard wanted to foster such behavior, especially when they went lengths to make LFR loot more difficult to "troll".
Truth be told, the Timeless Isle IS a success and it can be a lot of fun, but at the same time it has some glaring flaws I hope the next iteration dismisses.
Truth be told, the Timeless Isle IS a success and it can be a lot of fun, but at the same time it has some glaring flaws I hope the next iteration dismisses.
"Look, Shaohao rep in my view is a giant step back from Blizzard's previous standard of quality. It harkens back to the old Vanilla WoW Timbermaw Hold rep grind which just meant hours upon hours of indiscriminately murdering every furbolg you saw."
ReplyDeleteYes. And the Shaohao grind was GLORIOUS.
That's exactly what it was intended to be for those obsessed enough to want the mount at Exalted. How is it any different from the AB/WSG rep grind or stuff like "Win 1000 BGs" (I'm not sure that's an actual achievement but it probably is)?
Or how about arena mounts? Do you have one of those from each season?
I really don't see a problem with Blizzard putting in some crazy grinds for people who are interested in them.
"The problem is that there is a relatively small number of mobs in a small area. Frequently I have gone up there to find people basically standing on different spawn points and ganking them as they came into existence. I'm sorry, this is not good design, this is not "excusable" because it's "optional"."
What are you talking about?
1, you can summon like 20-30 mobs every 10 minutes with the Challenge scroll
2, you can kill the elites at the Blazing Way (usually camped the most)
3, you can kill the mobs on the other wise of the bridge but not in the main sanctuary (don't need cloak and lots of mobs plus a small courtyard with the guaranteed burden)
4, you can kill the mobs in the main courtyard sanctuary (need cloak).
You're telling me *all* of those are unavailable?
"To a Pet/Mount collector that content is anything BUT optional because it hides a rare pet look and unique mount. This does spark the question for another post of what "optional" means due to its subjective nature in an MMO."
Here's two key differences:
1, there are no pets/mounts collected rankings which determine guild survival
2, you do not need the pets/mounts as soon as they are available. A progression raider cannot skip LFR/Flex or a new rep for a month -- they need the items NOW to hep with progression and be competitive. But you can get the mount/pet four months down the line and it has absolutely no impact on anything besides the fact you probably wanted it sooner.
"Worse yet, the tiny drop-rates on the pets/mounts causes people to want to ensure their best chance at getting each item; which can even mean being deceptive about spawn and death times."
...say what? It's individual loot. Multiple people can get the mount or no one can. Doesn't matter how many people tag it, individual for each person.
I don't disagree that it has a "GLORIOUS" feel for those that have completed it, but that doesn't change it being a step back to Vanilla grindy-ness. Even the most famous "grind for mount," the Wintersaber trainers, was moved towards dailies. I don't mind it having a "grind lots of mobs for rep" component, but the singular, low rep daily, is a step back from that. I certainly don't expect it to go as quickly as some of the more mainstream reputations (Shado-pan, etc), but a single ~250 rep quest seems unwise.
DeleteThe four options you presented all look interesting, I have not tested the Ordos courtyard (no cloak) but I did not recall getting rep from mobs outside the quest-marked area. I will check again. That said, the scroll summons a set of elites and requires Honored to purchase, and one of the options requires the cloak.
Addressing your 1 and 2; though I know of no guilds who make their name on pet/mount collections, individuals still do and for some of them being the first is a major milestone. Being #1 in pets collected on WoWPets requires being highly competitive. To players that value that, it's no different from being server second/third/last in terms of raiding. If having the most pets means grinding out to exalted Shaohao so be it, just as jumping right on top of LFR/Flex is vital for a top-tier raiding guild.
As for the last part; yes it is individual loot and I commend their wisdom there. However when people are generally announcing times, it has encouraged people to be deceptive and I think that is unhealthy. They could have added a VERY inefficient alternative (100k coins for ANYTHING that drops, maybe 200k for Huolon's) to reduce emphasis on RareCoordinator and /General. Especially when Blizz has billed the Timeless Isle as a "Go and explore" kind of place, not "Go and sit by a specific rare's spawn point".
"I don't disagree that it has a "GLORIOUS" feel for those that have completed it, but that doesn't change it being a step back to Vanilla grindy-ness."
Delete...that's my point with my tongue-in-cheek comment. It is EXACTLY a step back to Vanilla grindiness and that is EXACTLY what it was intended to be. It is *supposed* something for people who like grinds -- just like grinds like Insane in the Membrane (though it's considerably easier than Insane).
It is INTENDED to be something you probably work on for months, slowly, with a small gain every now and then. But the thing is, if you're dedicated to getting it, you can still earn at least 50 rep a minute grinding mobs -- which is like taking 5 minutes to do a daily worth 250 rep.
It encourages working in a group and rewards having decent gear. Hell, with my 560+ ilvl I could grind 50 rep a minute solo. I don't see this as a bad thing.
And if you don't get Exalted in a week or three, well, that's intended. Supposed to work on it over the course of the patch for many people. Part of it is also that many people are spoiled by the commendations that halve the amount of rep needed from Revered to Exalted -- Shaohao doesn't have this.
"That said, the scroll summons a set of elites and requires Honored to purchase, and one of the options requires the cloak."
Sure, but if you think getting to Honored is bad...that's only 9k/42k total. And it's pretty likely that if you get a group for grinding rep that SOMEONE will be honored and won't mind getting some scrolls.
"To players that value that, it's no different from being server second/third/last in terms of raiding."
It is different because it's not a group ranking. It's like the difference between having the best individual free-throw percentage in the basketball league and having the best team record in the league.
Sure, people may care a lot about having the best free-throw percentage but it doesn't determine the overall success of a group and whether the group can keep functioning.
"If having the most pets means grinding out to exalted Shaohao so be it, just as jumping right on top of LFR/Flex is vital for a top-tier raiding guild."
Pet only requires Revered.
"However when people are generally announcing times, it has encouraged people to be deceptive and I think that is unhealthy."
How has it encouraged people to be deceptive if everyone's loot chance is the same regardless of how many other people kill a rare? Is there any way Blizzard could set it up to NOT encourage people to be deceptive other than literally giving a in-game broadcast whenever a rare spawns or something?
"Especially when Blizz has billed the Timeless Isle as a "Go and explore" kind of place, not "Go and sit by a specific rare's spawn point"."
I will agree that rares die too quickly and giving them a buff like "Timeless Shroud" that prevents them from being attacked for 60 seconds after spawning would be nice. On the flip side, once you kill a rare you're free to go explore for 20 minutes before returning to camp.
"It is INTENDED to be something you probably work on for months, slowly, with a small gain every now and then. But the thing is, if you're dedicated to getting it, you can still earn at least 50 rep a minute grinding mobs -- which is like taking 5 minutes to do a daily worth 250 rep."
DeleteAnd personally I don't think this is a good design for a modern MMO; the idea of artificial grind intended to string out for months. It feels like Blizz is saying, "We know this is the last patch, so we're going to give you something to waste your time on." Blizz has moved away from the Vanilla design for good reason. Adding two more dailies might have been a nice compromise; ~750 rep a day is still going to make it a 56 day climb (depending on rep buffs). I'll end up grinding my way there eventually anyways because I enjoyed collecting mounts but of those I have worked on, this is among the least "fun".
And I did go and check last night and this morning; all three spots you listed that I can access were heavily camped on my server.
That said, it's a matter of opinion and if there are people that enjoy it, more power to them. I misread the tongue-in-cheek nature of the original post so my apologies, but this post as well was meant to have a certain "ribbing" intent.
"It encourages working in a group and rewards having decent gear. Hell, with my 560+ ilvl I could grind 50 rep a minute solo. I don't see this as a bad thing."
And the first part I fully support, but I am not really sure "good gear" needs more reward since it is rewarded in virtually every other aspect of play (with the exception of pet battles). But that's another topic altogether.
"It is different because it's not a group ranking. It's like the difference between having the best individual free-throw percentage in the basketball league and having the best team record in the league.
Sure, people may care a lot about having the best free-throw percentage but it doesn't determine the overall success of a group and whether the group can keep functioning."
It matters because to each individual in that group it matters; they're still just a collection of individuals. To an individual sports player, they want to win, but their value to a team and as a player is largely individual. Great players on bad teams are still worth a lot. Plus, GC's original post was not purely aimed at the top 1% of raiding guilds; it's aimed at anyone who raids. Even for many non-server-first guilds, any rep that grants upgrades becomes essentially mandatory. Thankfully, Timeless did not really do that. Also this is kind of a separate topic, still I do not think that "optional" excuses "poorly designed". Maybe, as a friend points out, it was meant to harken back to Vanilla (as you said GLORIOUS) and to be meant for people who want to return to that time, but that doesn't change my opinion.
"Pet only requires Revered."
And the previous example included the mount, I apologize but I assume it was clear I meant either. So while the pet is revered, the mount is exalted.
"How has it encouraged people to be deceptive if everyone's loot chance is the same regardless of how many other people kill a rare? Is there any way Blizzard could set it up to NOT encourage people to be deceptive other than literally giving a in-game broadcast whenever a rare spawns or something?"
In-game broadcast, longer lives for rares, or reducing their importance slightly (see my "inefficient coin" idea in previous reply). But as it is, if I see Spawn of Jadefire or Huolon up, it is to my benefit to just kill them without saying anything so that I know the timer (and thus have more control over the spawn) and others do not.
Also, thank you for commenting! I forgot to mention that initially.
Delete"And personally I don't think this is a good design for a modern MMO; the idea of artificial grind intended to string out for months"
DeleteWould you prefer to see like three separate shorter grinds that add up to the same total reward (like one gives nothing but a pet at exalted, one gives nothing but a mount at exalted, and one gives nothing but some cosmetic items at exalted)?
"Adding two more dailies might have been a nice compromise; ~750 rep a day is still going to make it a 56 day climb (depending on rep buffs)"
Except you already get 400+ rep for simply doing the quest -- so a guaranteed 650+ rep a day. And if you're killing the easier elites (like frogs) instead of the Ordos...well, then you're going to get rewarded less for taking the easier route.
I mean, personally, I vastly prefer this method -- because it ISN'T tied to daily quests which means I can progress whenever I have the time to invest. I'm not limited to spending 10 minutes each day doing three daily quests. And I'm rewarded for cooperation with others, being better at the game, and having better gear.
Part of the problem with dailies is that if you miss a day you're behind and you can't ever make it up (until you hit Exalted, I suppose). I like the fact I can invest as much time as I'd like whenever I want at a good clip (50+ rep a minute solo, which means 14 hours from Neutral to Exalted without counting the quest, which is spending 15 minutes a day doing dailies for 56 days (your day number)).
"And I did go and check last night and this morning; all three spots you listed that I can access were heavily camped on my server."
Meaning there was a group of 5+ people at each one that was full and wouldn't accept you to help grind the rep?
"I am not really sure "good gear" needs more reward since it is rewarded in virtually every other aspect of play (with the exception of pet battles)."
How?
"Great players on bad teams are still worth a lot"
But only because they improve the performance of the team overall. How does someone having a lot of pets or mounts improve the performance of a group?
"Even for many non-server-first guilds, any rep that grants upgrades becomes essentially mandatory. Thankfully, Timeless did not really do that."
Oh, believe me, I am quite aware: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-ring-vendor-on-optional.html
It's not raiding -- gear is the nerfing mechanism of raids: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-response-to-responses-to-response-to.html
It's not PvP -- separate gearsets and PvE items are scaled down.
It's not leveling -- gear gets replaced constantly.
That basically leaves dailies and stuff like this. Dailies are so easy anyway and limited by time per day that the gear doesn't really help.
So...that leaves stuff like this.
"But as it is, if I see Spawn of Jadefire or Huolon up, it is to my benefit to just kill them without saying anything so that I know the timer (and thus have more control over the spawn) and others do not."
How do you have any significantly less control over the spawn if you kill it after letting others reach it? Either way you know the time it died. Either way you know when you need to be back.
If anything, killing it solo hurts more because it makes it more likely for other people to be camping it since only you know when it died (so they think it might spawn any second).
I think you're dramatically over-exaggerating this effect regardless.